Go Back   Physics Help Forum > High School and Pre-University Physics Help > Thermodynamics and Fluid Mechanics

Thermodynamics and Fluid Mechanics Thermodynamics and Fluid Mechanics Physics Help Forum

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old Aug 23rd 2019, 11:25 AM   #1
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 2
Understand pump curves

Hi,

I am in a situation where I need to estimate the flow rate of air [CFM] through a compressed air fixture. These fixtures have pump curves using water, but to my knowledge this will not help me estimate the CFM capabilities for air instead of water.
Which brings me to the question, how can a water pump curve be useful for different fluids? If I am wrong, how can this curve be used to understand flow behavior of a different fluid? Could this information be converted for fluids of different extremes such as air and water?

I understand how a pump curve can be useful if the pump curve is made using the same fluid, but I'm confused how it can be used elsewhere.

Any information would be helpful. A book or write-up on the topic would be helpful as well.

Experiment information on the water pump curves: The fixture is mounted inline with a system. Water is pumped through the system and the pressure drop between the inlet and outlet is plotted against flow rate.
TENichols94 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 24th 2019, 08:24 AM   #2
Senior Member
 
Woody's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: England
Posts: 998
My first thought is that you need very different pumps for water and air.
you may be able to pump air with a water pump but the efficiency is likely to be woeful.
__________________
~\o/~
Woody is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 24th 2019, 09:44 AM   #3
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 2
Yes I understand that. In my situation I'm wanting to understand the head loss in connectors, fixtures, regulators, etc. and to do so I'll be plotting head loss against flow rate.

The means of flow transport will vary, but that's not what I am interested in.

My questions is if I have a head loss chart for say water, can that information be converted and or useful for different fluids such as oil or anti-freeze.
For some of the connectors that I will be running test on they have the ability to work with both air and water.

Thanks for the response!
TENichols94 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 28th 2019, 04:02 AM   #4
Senior Member
 
Woody's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: England
Posts: 998
It Depends...

I would suggest that it depends on how similar the fluids are to water.
I would guess that the head loss will be related to the density and viscosity of the fluid.
It is possible that you could find a connection with Reynolds Number.

However I must stress that I am extrapolating from other knowledge about fluid flows,
rather than direct knowledge of the subject of your original post.
__________________
~\o/~
Woody is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 29th 2019, 03:24 AM   #5
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Glasgow
Posts: 443
Originally Posted by TENichols94 View Post
My questions is if I have a head loss chart for say water, can that information be converted and or useful for different fluids such as oil or anti-freeze.
For some of the connectors that I will be running test on they have the ability to work with both air and water.

Thanks for the response!
Yes, but I don't know how much work would be required to do perform the conversion. The level of detail you'll want to go to might also depend on the particular situation you are trying to engineer. It might be better to just start from scratch with a new curve.

Different fluids have different functions for viscosity, heat capacity and density with temperature, so the head loss curves will look very different for different working fluids. The main differences manifest as different head loss gradients in pipes due to friction.

You could therefore make some progress by recalculating the friction head losses in pipes using the Darcy-Weisbach or Hazen-Williams equations and substituting the variables relevant for your new working fluid.

You'll also want to re-evaluate the Reynolds numbers for flow in your channels when computing your hydraulic problem to ensure that you're using the correct friction factors for laminar/turbulent flow.

If you care about heat transfer in the fluid, you'll also need to recalculate how the supplies/loads are performed because the change in heat capacity of the working fluid affects those devices. You'll also need to watch out for boiling because some working fluids have lower boiling points than water (i.e. the boiling-limit minimum head curve will change with the different fluid).

The presence of polymers or other media in the fluid can also change the friction behaviour ("Tom's effect"), but for most engineering situations this is not recommended, so you probably don't need to worry about that.
benit13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Sep 3rd 2019, 02:52 AM   #6
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Germany
Posts: 1
Reading a pump curve often presents a challenge, particularly to engineers that are new to pumps and turbomachinery... I recommend having a look here, also to understand the role of simulation when designing pump curves.
vmagalhaes is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

  Physics Help Forum > High School and Pre-University Physics Help > Thermodynamics and Fluid Mechanics

Tags
compressed air, curves, fluid flow, pump, pump head, understand



Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Physics Forum Discussions
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
lissajous curves/figures PhysicsHud General Physics 2 Jul 11th 2019 10:26 AM
Need help with a pump chart omgjustdont Thermodynamics and Fluid Mechanics 2 Jan 10th 2019 01:54 AM
heat pump problem meganfox Thermodynamics and Fluid Mechanics 0 Jul 11th 2014 11:50 AM
Bicycle Pump LastChance Thermodynamics and Fluid Mechanics 0 Apr 19th 2012 11:11 AM
Mass center between curves Black Kinematics and Dynamics 1 Jan 13th 2010 06:26 PM


Facebook Twitter Google+ RSS Feed