Go Back   Physics Help Forum > College/University Physics Help > Special and General Relativity

Special and General Relativity Special and General Relativity Physics Help Forum

Like Tree1Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old May 25th 2019, 04:01 PM   #1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: cosmos
Posts: 493
Talking Balloon vs SR

When I was a kid, I liked to play balloon.
If a balloon moves very fast away from us, accoding to Lorenzt transformation, we consider that the size of the ballon in the along direction will contract, while the size of the balloon in the cross direction will not change.
Because we consider that the volumn of the ballon lessened, the mass of the air inside the balloon increased, so the density of mass of the air inside the balloon increased.
What interesting is: should we consider that the balloon will contract in the cross direction too due to the increase of mass density of the air inside the balloon?
Thank you.
neila9876 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 25th 2019, 04:09 PM   #2
Forum Admin
 
topsquark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: On the dance floor, baby!
Posts: 2,776
Originally Posted by neila9876 View Post
When I was a kid, I liked to play balloon.
If a balloon moves very fast away from us, accoding to Lorenzt transformation, we consider that the size of the ballon in the along direction will contract, while the size of the balloon in the cross direction will not change.
Because we consider that the volumn of the ballon lessened, the mass of the air inside the balloon increased, so the density of mass of the air inside the balloon increased.
What interesting is: should we consider that the balloon will contract in the cross direction too due to the increase of mass density of the air inside the balloon?
Thank you.
For the first part you are absolutely correct. The air will be denser according to a stationary observer.

For the second part, remember that the balloon in it's reference frame still looks like the balloon when it was at rest. So if the size of the cross section changes for the stationary observer then it would also have to happen in the frame moving with the balloon and that isn't going to happen. (The contraction is only in the direction of motion.)

It's a good question!

-Dan
__________________
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

See the forum rules here.
topsquark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 26th 2019, 02:13 AM   #3
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: cosmos
Posts: 493
balloon vs balloon

@dragon:
Change a method to research:
1. The semi - tramp kicks the balloon off, then the mass density of the air inside the balloon increases. According to dragon's opinion, the size of the balloon will not contract in the cross direction.
2. The semi - tramp puts the balloon into a refrigerater too cool it down, also the mass density of the air inside the balloon increases. But he finds that the size of the balloon contracts in all directions.
The "increase of mass density of the air inside the balloon" is one event, why two different results? Logic splits in nature?
neila9876 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 26th 2019, 05:02 PM   #4
Senior Member
 
Woody's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: England
Posts: 959
accelerating or freezing the balloon,
Two different actions, two different results.
I don't see were you are leading.
__________________
~\o/~
Woody is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 26th 2019, 05:56 PM   #5
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: cosmos
Posts: 493
Talking two vs four

@Woody:
Good question! It's so nice to see Professor Woodpecker here...haha
Next, the semi - tramp has to do a drudge ...
He hugs the balloon and dives deep into the sea bottom. The mass density of the gas inside the balloon increases and the size of the balloon contracts in all direction.
He flys into the the cosmos and observes a big balloon (sun) collapse (white dwarf). The mass density increases and the size contracts in all direction...
What Relativity describes is true contraction of physical space, not just a game of math. Then when the balloon moves very fast, according to that dragon's opinion, the balloon will becomes very thin and "bang"...While in the reference frame of the balloon, it will not...
neila9876 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 27th 2019, 03:03 AM   #6
Senior Member
 
Woody's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: England
Posts: 959
Ah,
So for a balloon moving relative to an observer at relativistic speeds
The observer would see a higher density within the balloon, than an observer traveling with the balloon.
which must imply that the material properties of the fabric of the balloon
must also be different for the two observers in order to prevent the balloon from bursting for the relativistic observer.
topsquark likes this.
__________________
~\o/~
Woody is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 28th 2019, 03:16 PM   #7
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: cosmos
Posts: 493
Smile

Traditional Lorenzt transformation in SR considers only the element of moving speed of the object while the physical structure of the object is realistic...the balloon should contract too in the cross direction so that it will not "bang"....

Last edited by neila9876; May 28th 2019 at 07:08 PM.
neila9876 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 29th 2019, 02:13 PM   #8
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: cosmos
Posts: 493
Cool Lorenzt vs pig

Logically, the Lorenzt transformation will not cause contraction in the cross direction does not mean other factors will not do it either.
The equation for Lorenzt transformation of length contraction is: L’ = L/γ
The mass – speed equation is M = γM0
Then, ML’ = M0L so, L’ = M0L / M motion element eliminated
Because M0 and L are constants, then: L’ ∝ 1 / M. This might be called the “mass – space equation”.
Mass M is a scalar, so the equation reflects the contraction of size in all directions due to the increase of mass.
It seems that the “mass – space equation” is a derived one. But its components “mass” and “space” are most basic physical elements. Actually, it should be a more basic equation than the equation for Lorenzt transformation of length contraction and the mass – speed equation. It describes more basic natural rule.
During the course of exploration, people often touch the leaves of a tree first, then the sticks, and so on the stock, at last the root. But for a tree, the root is the most basic.
From the angle of the physical substance of the object itself, the research might be more indepth and sufficient.

Last edited by neila9876; Jul 18th 2019 at 07:08 PM. Reason: united representations
neila9876 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 30th 2019, 03:48 AM   #9
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: cosmos
Posts: 493
Talking round vs thin

Actually, the mass – space equation can evolve to be L’ ∝ 1 / ρ where ρ is mass density.
Only the contraction of cosmos is able to render ρ trend to infinite and so space trend to zero: it will be a singularity. “Interaction” will disappear and so will the “existence”. It is in conformity with Woody’s great philosophical opinion about “interaction - existence”.
neila9876 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jul 18th 2019, 05:54 AM   #10
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: cosmos
Posts: 493
Talking

mostly worthy to read is here, but I failed to attach file.
Assume a part of stable DC circuit with the shape of “L” rests in inertial frame S: section 1 horizontal; section 2 vertical; wire cutting face square a × a for convenience.


















Another inertial frame S’ moves rightward at velocity u.
First, analysis resorts to traditional Lorentz transformation.
In frame S:
For section 1, I1 = n1qv1; for section 2, I2 = n2qv2
(Here take the moving direction of electron as the direction of current for convenience, n is the density of free electron in the wire, q is the charge carried by electron, v is the moving velocity of free electron.)
I1 = I2, n1 = n2 = n, v1 = v2 = v
In frame S’:
For section 1, △x’ = △x / γ , (γ = 1 / √1 - u²/ c² ) , △y’ = △y , △z’ = △z
V’ = △x’△y’△z’ = △x△y△z / γ = V / γ , V’ is volume in frame S’, V is volume in frame S
So, n1’ = γn1 = γn
Lorentz transformation of velocity:
v1’ = (v1 - u) / (1 - u v1/c² )
I1’ = n1’qv1’ = γnq (v1 - u) / (1 - u v1/c²)
For section 2, also V’ = V / γ
So, n2’ = γn2 = γn
Lorentz transformation of velocity:
v2’ = v2 / γ(1 - u v1/c²)
I2’ = n2’qv2’ = γnq v2 / γ(1 - u v1/c²) = nq v2 / (1 - u v1/c²)
I1’ ≠ I2’
Physics rule is not equally applicable in inertial frame S’.
Next, resort to the space contraction in all directions which is disclosed by the Mass – Space equation.
In frame S’:
For section 1, n1’ = γ³n1 = γ³n
v1’ = dx’ / dt’ = (v1 - u) / (1 - u v1/c² )
I1’ = n1’qv1’ = γ³nq (v1 - u) / (1 - u v1/c²)
For section 2, n2’ = γ³n2 = γ³n
v2’ = dz’ / dt’ = dx’ / dt’ = (v1 - u) / (1 - u v1/c² )
I2’ = n2’qv2’ = γ³nq (v1 - u) / (1 - u v1/c²)
I1’ = I2’
Physics rule is equally applicable in inertial frame S’.



Li Qiang Chen
July 17, 2019
Attached Thumbnails
Balloon vs SR-img_20190719_133758.jpg  

Last edited by neila9876; Jul 19th 2019 at 04:12 PM. Reason: correct word
neila9876 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

  Physics Help Forum > College/University Physics Help > Special and General Relativity

Tags
balloon



Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Physics Forum Discussions
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Hot-air balloon (dynamics problem) rndaryam Kinematics and Dynamics 9 Jul 29th 2016 10:07 AM
Gas laws and hot air balloon. Zentiuse Thermodynamics and Fluid Mechanics 1 Feb 7th 2013 09:15 AM
Atoms in a balloon of helium pro222 Thermodynamics and Fluid Mechanics 1 Nov 8th 2009 11:14 PM
helium BALLOON physicsbuoy Thermodynamics and Fluid Mechanics 1 Dec 10th 2008 07:19 AM


Facebook Twitter Google+ RSS Feed