Special and General Relativity Special and General Relativity Physics Help Forum  4Likes
Aug 28th 2016, 11:53 PM

#1  Junior Member
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 20
 Physical defect of Einstein transformation of coordinate system Physical defect of Einstein transformation of coordinate system
Last edited by Liuxinhua; Aug 29th 2016 at 07:37 PM.
Reason: Modify a pen error

 
Aug 28th 2016, 11:56 PM

#2  Junior Member
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 20

Abstract: Straight rod with rotary motion will become bending within the scope of special relativity when the observer moving relative to the center of rotation, respectively by numerical verification and theoretical derivation. The bending effect which is not acceptable in the field of physics is only related to Lorentz transformation between two inertial reference systems. The special relativity may be negligent.
Keywords: bending, rotating, coordinate transformation, inertial reference system, equilibrium, special relativity
PACS 03.30.+p
Newton founded the classical mechanics, which is precisely in accordance with the world. But Einstein's special relativity shows that there are differences between Newton's description and reality.
Einstein told us: One event occurred at a spatialtime coordinate position, observed by observers rest on an inertial reference system. And the same event is occurred at another spatialtime coordinate position, observed by observers rest on another inertial reference system. These two coordinates can be converted by Lorentz transformation. And the time component of the two coordinates is related to the space component.
This view of spatialtime proposed by Einstein has been confirmed by a lot of experiments, especially for the correction of satellite clock, according to the theory of relativity. (note 1)
At present, it is considered that the theory of relativity is correct in our cognitive scope.
However, we found a phenomenon: A rotating rod keeps state "straight" observed by observes rest in an inertial reference system, the shape of the rod will become bent observed by observes rest in another inertial reference system, if the coordinates of the same event in different inertial systems satisfied with Lorentz transformation, because Lorentz transformation of special relativity will inevitably lead to the relativity of simultaneity.
We could not explain the counterexample under scope of special relativity. The phenomenon may reveal the defects of special relativity.

 
Aug 29th 2016, 12:16 AM

#3  Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Somerset, England
Posts: 993

A rotating rod is accelerating so its frame is not an inertial system.

 
Aug 29th 2016, 12:22 AM

#4  Junior Member
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 20

Originally Posted by studiot A rotating rod is accelerating so its frame is not an inertial system. 
The carriage can be considered as an inertial system.
We assume that the carriage neither rotation nor acceleration, so, we set the carriage is the inertial system “K”.
K is not the rod.
We just observed the rotating rod on the carriage .
Last edited by Liuxinhua; Aug 29th 2016 at 12:33 AM.

 
Aug 29th 2016, 12:42 AM

#5  Junior Member
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 20

A numerical calculation of bending effect is listed in Section2. In Section2, we just had used Lorenz transformation to converted coordinates of event from one inertial reference system to another inertial reference system.
Section2 is enough to illustrate bending effect of the theory of relativity, even does not need the Section3.
Section1 is serviced for Section3.
In Section3.1, it has been stated that it is impossible for three points on a rotating rod, if the rod keeps state "straight" on K, appearing on the x' axis at the same time on K', because of relativity of simultaneity. This shows that in some of the time to be determined, the existence of bending effect of the theory of relativity, in theory.
In Section3.2, we have stated the persistence of bending effect of the theory of relativity.
In Section4, how the bending effect of the theory of relativity can't be acceptable in physical field has been stated.
We had not distinguished these two concepts, "Einstein's coordinate transformation formula" and "Lorenz transformation". "Lorenz transformation" means "Einstein's coordinate transformation formula".

 
Aug 29th 2016, 08:08 AM

#6  Forum Admin
Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: On the dance floor, baby!
Posts: 2,451

If you are going to find a flaw I have a better one here.
No impulses can travel faster than the speed of light. That is a given in SR. What this means is that matter (any kind of matter) is somewhat "flexible" in terms of response time. The rotating bar in your example is one good demonstration of this effect: The bar has to be bent because the impulse for it to move can only be transmitted at the speed of light.
Dan
__________________
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
See the forum rules here.

 
Aug 29th 2016, 01:20 PM

#7  Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Somerset, England
Posts: 993

Yes your carriage can be considered as an inertial system and yes, you can observe activity in a non inertial system from there.
So what?
SR only refers to transformations between inertial systems.
So why would you expect the gamma factor to apply?

 
Aug 29th 2016, 06:35 PM

#8  Junior Member
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 20

[IMG]http://a3.qpic.cn/psb?/V10soBVI354eO3/0AqjE*il7XrzDa1kP48.31Z7tOdTGVdMv3EUxKYp*M0!/m/dK4AAAAAAAAA&bo=ngINAQAAAAABB7A!&rf=photolist[/IMG]
Originally Posted by topsquark If you are going to find a flaw I have a better one here.
No impulses can travel faster than the speed of light. That is a given in SR. What this means is that matter (any kind of matter) is somewhat "flexible" in terms of response time. The rotating bar in your example is one good demonstration of this effect: The bar has to be bent because the impulse for it to move can only be transmitted at the speed of light.
Dan 
I'm sorry to say that I have a clerical error.
Therefore, all points are not faster than the velocity of light.

 
Aug 29th 2016, 06:41 PM

#9  Junior Member
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 20

Originally Posted by studiot Yes your carriage can be considered as an inertial system and yes, you can observe activity in a non inertial system from there.
So what?
SR only refers to transformations between inertial systems.
So why would you expect the gamma factor to apply? 
Two inertial systems, one is carriage "K", another one is the ground " K' ", assume that we are on a planet that is moving at a constant speed and no rotation.
I only take transformations between K and K'.

 
Aug 30th 2016, 03:13 AM

#10  Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Somerset, England
Posts: 993

I'm not buying this.
Your text is 13 pages long and I haven't waded through all of it yet, since you start with what appears to me to be a false premise in any system of mechanics.
So first why have two inertial coordinate systems, K and K' if you are not going to transform between them?
Second why have you introduced the \Lorenz formula, which is a transformation between coordinate systems. It does not apply within a single system.
Anyway, to horse.
In your first page you state that the spokes appear straight in the carriage system and introduce the constant k9 as a result and also a time instant t9 in the carriage system.
This is not justified since the three points are in motion relative to the observer at the hub of the K system due to their angular motion.
When the hub observer's clock strikes t9 he will observe the positions of the three particles at different times in his past, due to the different times it takes for light to travel the different distances from each particle to the observer.
Thus far this is true in both Galilean/Newtonian mechanics and Einstinian Relativity.
Either way the equations you present on page 1 introducing k9 do not hold true.

  Tags  bending, coordinate, coordinate transformation, defect, einstein, inertial reference system, physical, rotating, special relativity, system, transformation  Search tags for this page 
Click on a term to search for related topics.
 Thread Tools   Display Modes  Linear Mode  