Physics Help Forum Thermodynamics vs. God?

 Philosophy of Physics Philosophy of Physics Forum - Philosophical questions about our universe

 Jul 27th 2009, 01:19 PM #1 Physics Team     Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 310 Thermodynamics vs. God? According to the 2nd law of thermodynamics, energy can neither be created nor destroyed. So $\displaystyle E_{universe} = C$; where $\displaystyle C$ is constant. This implies that our universe always had the same amount of energy stored within it, as a system. This could even prelude the Big Bang. Question: Do you think this conflicts with a concept of a creator? If not, why? __________________ "Dissent is the highest form of patriotism." - Thomas Jefferson. "Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes her laws." -Mayer Amschel Rothschild I study Mathematical Physics at the University of Waterloo. -DC
Jul 27th 2009, 01:27 PM   #2
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 Originally Posted by Deco According to the 2nd law of thermodynamics, energy can neither be created nor destroyed. So $\displaystyle E_{universe} = C$; where $\displaystyle C$ is constant. This implies that our universe always had the same amount of energy stored within it, as a system. This could even prelude the Big Bang. Question: Do you think this conflicts with a concept of a creator? If not, why?
Isn't it the first law of thermodynamics that states that energy is conserved?

According to wikipedia,
 The increase in the internal energy of a system is equal to the amount of energy added by heating the system, minus the amount lost as a result of the work done by the system on its surroundings.
. The problem here is that there is no such thing as "surroundings" when you consider the Universe as the system. I don't know how to apply the first law of thermodynamics to the whole Universe.
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Jul 27th 2009, 01:32 PM   #3
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 Isn't it the first law of thermodynamics that states that energy is conserved?]
Right, sorry.

 The problem here is that there is no such thing as "surroundings" when you consider the Universe as the system
If there's nothing that surronds it (or outside of it), then there is no God.

EDIT: Consider that there is a creator outside of the universe, doesn't that imply the Universe isn't
a closed system? This would violate conservation of energy...
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"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism." - Thomas Jefferson.

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I study Mathematical Physics at the
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-DC

Last edited by Deco; Jul 27th 2009 at 01:41 PM.

Jul 27th 2009, 02:36 PM   #4
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 Originally Posted by Deco EDIT: Consider that there is a creator outside of the universe, doesn't that imply the Universe isn't a closed system? This would violate conservation of energy...
I don't see why it would violate the conservation of energy. By definition the Universe is all that exists so I can't define a God outside the Universe.
Once again, I'm not sure we can considerate the Universe as a closed system. I think you mean an isolated system. If it is the case then the total energy must be constant. You could introduce a God inside the Universe (thought experiment), but I don't see how it would violate the 1st law of thermodynamics.
And I think that talking about a pre-big bang era has no physical sense.
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Jul 27th 2009, 02:46 PM   #5
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 And I think that talking about a pre-big bang era has no physical sense.
Sure we can talk about it, in singularity form.

 introduce a God inside the Universe
Introduce? That would increase the universe's total energy.
__________________
"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism." - Thomas Jefferson.

"Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes her laws." -Mayer Amschel Rothschild

I study Mathematical Physics at the
University of Waterloo.

-DC

Jul 27th 2009, 03:16 PM   #6
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 Originally Posted by Deco Sure we can talk about it, in singularity form.
Ok then I just read, I don't comment. ahah

 Originally Posted by Deco Introduce? That would increase the universe's total energy.
What if we introduce God inside the Universe and at the start of the big bang if we can talk about a start. This way the total energy doesn't increase during the existence of the Universe.
Also I'm not sure why God would require energy outside the Universe, i.e. an increase of total energy of the current Universe if introduced now.
There's also the problem of how you define God. If you define it as being the "creator" to the Universe, then why would it need energy to exist? Are you considering it as matter? If so then I could say that its energy comes from a part of the Universe since the Universe exists. There's no violation of the 1st law.
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 Jul 27th 2009, 08:25 PM #7 Physics Team     Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 310 Right. I think we got a bit too philsophical. I don't see how we can know anything outside of our universe. __________________ "Dissent is the highest form of patriotism." - Thomas Jefferson. "Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes her laws." -Mayer Amschel Rothschild I study Mathematical Physics at the University of Waterloo. -DC
Jul 27th 2009, 09:06 PM   #8
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 Originally Posted by Deco Right. I think we got a bit too philsophical. I don't see how we can know anything outside of our universe.
It's ok. there's no problem of going a little bit too philosophical.
I don't believe something can exist outside the Universe, because if it did then it would make part of the Universe, contradicting the hypothesis. (the hypothesis asserts "suppose something exists outside the Universe").
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Jul 27th 2009, 09:11 PM   #9
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 I don't believe something can exist outside the Universe, because if it did then it would make part of the Universe
Good point. The universe could be infinite, which would make it impossible for something
to exist outside of it.
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"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism." - Thomas Jefferson.

"Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes her laws." -Mayer Amschel Rothschild

I study Mathematical Physics at the
University of Waterloo.

-DC

Jul 27th 2009, 09:17 PM   #10
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 Originally Posted by Deco Good point. The universe could be infinite, which would make it impossible for something to exist outside of it.
If we look at the analogy of the set of natural numbers, it is infinite but there are still infinitely many other numbers that exist.
I stand on my point : if you consider the Universe as all that exist (the typical definition of it), then it is impossible for something to exist outside of it. The proof is in my last post.
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