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 Aug 24th 2017, 06:04 PM #1 Banned   Join Date: Nov 2016 Posts: 63 Black Hole Birth So we know that when a giant star starts to die, its structure gives out causing it to implode making a Black Hole. When that giant sphere implodes onto a single point in space/time, I theorize that it physically turns space/time inside out at that single point (singularity) simply because it can't handle the force. Its gravity, after birth, is not due to just physical mass, but to the tug on space/time into an increasingly sized inside out hole (space/time becomes the membrane/housing/bag of the new black hole, the more matter it contains, the more stretching/housing,pull it requires). Nothing escapes because space/time has been molded/modified to send anything and everything inward to the gateway singularity. I think it's possible that this inside out bag of cr@p is in 4D, starting at the singularity. Last edited by pittsburghjoe; Aug 24th 2017 at 08:20 PM.
 Aug 25th 2017, 03:45 AM #2 Senior Member     Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: England Posts: 963 I have seen several musings put forward along the lines you suggest, For example Black Holes budding off as White Holes otherwise known as "Big-Bangs" starting new universes. Interesting ideas, but no proof, and no obvious way of getting any supporting evidence. Since these ideas have little or no bearing on "mainstream" physics and no way of testing them against any of the other equally (or arguably more) plausible ideas, they generally get put on a shelf waiting for advances elsewhere to either kill them completely, or give them a renewed vigour. People can (and do) argue back and forth fruitlessly about which idea is more plausible, but without sensible supporting evidence, they are arguing in a vacuum. kiwiheretic likes this. __________________ ~\o/~
 Aug 25th 2017, 01:15 PM #3 Senior Member   Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: New Zealand Posts: 552 I'm a bit skeptical about Newton's law of gravitation for small (by that I mean infinitesimally small) radii. Like does $\displaystyle F = \frac{GMm}{r^2}$ really produce and infinite force when r = 0? Is there really such a thing as a point mass in real life? Also if there was such a thing as an infinite force it could accelerate a particle with mass to light speed which ought to be impossible. I suspect Newton's law of gravitation is not accurate at very small scales.
Aug 25th 2017, 04:20 PM   #4
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 Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe So we know that when a giant star starts to die, its structure gives out causing it to implode making a Black Hole.
That's not true. I believe that you're confusing giant stars with massive stars. They're not the same thing. For example; in about 5 to 6 billion years the sun will start to run out of hydrogen and will start to expand becoming a red giant and eventually become a white dwarf. It would take a star about 20 times the mass of the sun to be able to collapse into a black hole.

 Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe When that giant sphere implodes onto a single point in space/time, ...
It doesn't collapse into a single point in spacetime. It collapses into a single point in space. However the singularity is not something that is observable.

 Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe I theorize that it physically turns space/time inside
That is impossible to do because there is no meaning to such a notion.

 Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe ..out at that single point (singularity) simply because it can't handle the force.
Gravity is not like mortal beings who are unable to handle things. Gravity can do whatever the laws of nature dictate that it must do. However, as I said above, the singularity is not something that is observable. As such there is no way to even talk about what the matter does when its no longer observable. I.e. we can't say that there's a singularity at the center of a black hole.

 Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe ... but to the tug on space/time ..
What meaning are you giving to "tug on spacetime"? Spacetime is not a fabric which can be physically grabbed and pulled.

kiwiheretic - If r = 0 then what were initially two bodies are now one body and no body can exert a force on itself. r can never really become zero. Its an implicit assumption in Newton's laws that the two bodies are small compared to the distance between them. We then treat them as point objects. r is the distance between these two points. When r stars to become small then the approximation is no longer valid and Newton's laws no longer apply. If the two bodies are really point objects then they are black holes. And when that's the case the two black holes merge and we can no longer speak of two singularities and the Newton's law of gravity, i.e. the equation you posted, is no longer valid.

Last edited by Pmb; Aug 25th 2017 at 04:27 PM.

Aug 25th 2017, 04:38 PM   #5
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 Originally Posted by Pmb kiwiheretic - If r = 0 then what were initially two bodies are now one body and no body can exert a force on itself. r can never really become zero. Its an implicit assumption in Newton's laws that the two bodies are small compared to the distance between them. We then treat them as point objects. r is the distance between these two points. When r stars to become small then the approximation is no longer valid and Newton's laws no longer apply. If the two bodies are really point objects then they are black holes. And when that's the case the two black holes merge and we can no longer speak of two singularities and the Newton's law of gravity, i.e. the equation you posted, is no longer valid.
ok, suspected as much, good to know

 May 21st 2019, 07:31 PM #6 Forum Admin     Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: On the dance floor, baby! Posts: 2,778 Thread closed because pittsburghjoe is a jerk. -Dan __________________ Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup. See the forum rules here.

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