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Old Oct 12th 2014, 04:04 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
I'm afraid you won't find a satisfactory answer is current science, however, a new atomic model is receiving much attention and it explains spin motion in spherical Orb particles right from the get go. In The Resonance Principle all particles are spherical Orbs containing different amounts of a universal energy called Resonance. It is absorbed into Orbs but wishes to return to its native condition as free resonance filling all space between all Orbs. It exerts an omnidirectional force as it tries to escape from an Orb and this produces spin. The Resonance Principle animated movies go much further. After too many years I find this principle to be brilliant. It isn't boring (great music), that much I can say. It will make you recall and review what you're being taught.... http://www.theresonanceprinciple.org
Yes, I've looked at it. The problem is that there isn't a single shred of evidence to support it. Whereas there is a huge amount of support for current theories. As I recall (I watched the video about a week ago) there are no proposed experiments to test Orb/Resonance theory. Until there is some kind of support I will remain skeptical. No matter how good the music!

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Old Oct 13th 2014, 07:12 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Farsight View Post
AFAIK the electron Compton wavelength goes twice round the spindle sphere:



But note that the above is merely "the eye of the storm" as it were, the thing in the middle of the spirals below. Also note that it's quantum field theory, the electron's field is what it is. The electron isn't some billiard ball thing in the middle that has a field, field is all that's there. We might depict it as something like the frame-dragged gravitomagnetic field like this, but there's no outer edge or any point where it stops.



Something else. It's like the inner portion of a photon trajectory. Call it "field structure" or topology, check out TQFT.

That's totally mainstream. See for example hydrogen fine structure on hyperphysics.
ok, so are you suggesting that electron spin is inferred from the electron's internal magnetic field strength? How does that and the double lines prove that the electrons spins around 720 degrees before the same side is facing you again? Its not like anyone can draw a red dot on one side of the elctron and see how many revolutions the electron goes thru before the same side is facing you again! I presume its something to do with an angular momentum/mass calculation. Is it more of a mathematical trick (like complex numbers) in order to simplify some mathematical equations?
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Old Oct 16th 2014, 06:38 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by kiwiheretic View Post
ok, so are you suggesting that electron spin is inferred from the electron's internal magnetic field strength?
Not just that, but from the Einstein-de Haas effect too, and things like the Stern-Gerlach experiment. IMHO the problem with the latter is the non-sequitur wherein people say it doesn't spin like a planet so it doesn't spin at all. I think that's because they can't conceive of a "bispinor". Imagine a football on the penalty spot. You kick the ball on the right with your right foot to give it some spin, or you kick it on the left with to give it the opposite spin. Now imagine doing this when the ball started off with a ferocious backspin. Kick! Which way is the ball spinning? You can't really say. But you can say there's a difference between the spin resulting from your left and right kicks, and you might call one spin up and the other spin down. In one case the ball veers into the top left corner of the goal, in the other case it veers into the top right corner. If it wasn't spinning it wouldn't veer at all.



GNUFDL image by Theresa Knott, see Wikipedia

Originally Posted by kiwiheretic View Post
How does that and the double lines prove that the electrons spins around 720 degrees before the same side is facing you again?
It doesn't prove it at all. It's just a way of depicting something that has an obvious spin ½ attribute, and dispelling any misconception that spin ½ is something magical and mysterious.

Originally Posted by kiwiheretic View Post
Its not like anyone can draw a red dot on one side of the electron and see how many revolutions the electron goes thru before the same side is facing you again! I presume its something to do with an angular momentum/mass calculation. Is it more of a mathematical trick (like complex numbers) in order to simplify some mathematical equations?
Actually, I don't know. We've known that the electron is a spin ½ particle for a long time, but I don't know how we've known it. The Wikipedia spin ½ article mentions Schrödinger and Dirac and Stern-Gerlach, but the latter concerns silver atoms. Maybe it's something as simple as pair production and conservation of angular momentum.
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Old Dec 19th 2015, 02:53 AM   #14
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Its a strange world

I havr been reading theabove post/replies and I wish that I understood just what the h*ll you are taliking about.
The simplest explanation comes frmo going right the way back to the M-M experiment to make a fresh start in the lightof present lesrning.
The Atom, as the single indivisible partical, does not existg.
KEEP IT SIMPLE.
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Old Dec 19th 2015, 04:21 AM   #15
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To a small extent I am inclined to agree,
I feel a substantial part of the current issues in particle physics is the term "particle"
When one begins the thought process with a particle, you quickly find this "particle" has hugely (even ridiculously) weird properties.

I guess string theorists are making a laudable attempt to break from this mental straight-jacket, but the (apparent) lack of progress, after so much Herculean effort, does make one wonder if they are on the correct path.
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Old Dec 19th 2015, 08:38 AM   #16
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Do electrons spin ?

Than you MBW,
Personally I have no doubt that the "Boys' Own Whoopee Mathematical genii" are chasing hard up the wrong path.
That much worshipped "beautiful " maths is parochial - it works only here in its birth-place on Earth. The concept of Dark Matter is a child of Space which is a diffeerent matter.
To me the most important thing is that my physics (named KHGSICS) works and, recently, handed me the surprise of a lifetime.
I hold a solution to the GUT!
Ken
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Old Dec 23rd 2015, 01:03 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by kiwiheretic View Post
Spin implies angular momentum which implies torque existed at some point. However the electron appears to be a perfect sphere.

http://phys.org/news/2011-05-electro...ists-year.html

How can torque be applied to a sphere?

Your thoughts?
We first need to know what it means for an electron to be a sphere of have a spherical shape. For example; what is the substance of which the sphere is made of? Take a look at another source such as:
http://www.nature.com/news/2011/1105....2011.321.html
Although the electron has traditionally been considered to be an infinitesimally small point of charge, it actually drags a cloud of virtual particles around. These fleeting particles pop in and out of existence, and contribute to the electron's mass and volume. All experiments so far have revealed that this cloud is perfectly spherical, but hypothetical virtual particles predicted by extensions to the standard model would make the cloud bulge slightly along the electron's axis of spin. This bulge would make one side of the electron slightly more negatively charged than the other, creating an electric dipole similar to the north and south poles of a bar magnet.
So it's not really the electron which is a perfect sphere. It's the collection of the electron and virtual particles surrounding it that has the geometry of a perfect sphere.

If you really want to know what the spin of an electron consists of read

What is Spin? by Hans C. Ohanian, Am J. Phys., 54(6), June 1986.

You can download it from: http://jayryablon.files.wordpress.co...at-is-spin.pdf
The abstract reads
Abstract: According to the prevailing belief, the spin of the electron or of some other particle is a mysterious internal angular momentum for which no concrete physical picture is available, and for which there is no classical analog. However, on the basis of an old calculation by Belinfante [Physica 6, 887 (1939) ], it can be shown that the spin may be regarded as an angular momentum generated by a circulating flow of energy in the wave field of the electron. Likewise, the magnetic moment may be regarded as generated by a circulating flow of charge in the wave field. This provides an
intuitively appealing picture and establishes that neither the spin nor the magnetic moment are "internal"-they are not associated with the internal structure of the electron, but rather with the structure of its wave field. Furthermore, a comparison between calculations of· angular momentum in the Dirac and electromagnetic fields shows that the spin of the electron is entirely analogous to the angular momentum carried by a classical circularly polarized wave.
I hope that was useful.
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Old Dec 23rd 2015, 03:16 PM   #18
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In a spin

My problem Pmb is tha I don't accept the proposition of an electron! True it is that I use the trrm frequently when analysing Khgsics but I do so to avoid the complication of several names for the single concept.

My basic Atom is the fundamental particle which performs as nascent Hydrogen; the basic Molecule is two of the same. From just these two it is possible to build structures of any useful size which, laid out on a table, exactly imitate the Periodic Table. There is not a place for a charged particle.

Yes I know! I've had my head on the block for a long time.

Ken
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Old Dec 23rd 2015, 03:56 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by kengreen
My problem Pmb is tha I don't accept the proposition of an electron!
Oh. Okay. Thanks for explaining that. I don't agree but I'll respect your opinion.
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Old Dec 23rd 2015, 08:54 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by kiwiheretic
Spin implies angular momentum which implies torque existed at some point. However the electron appears to be a perfect sphere.

http://phys.org/news/2011-05-electro...ists-year.html

How can torque be applied to a sphere?

Your thoughts?
Something has been bothering me since I first read the question as you stated it. I just figured out what it was that was bothering me. It's the way in which you phrased it. Think of a sphere such as a bowling ball or a beach ball etc. It there are no handles on it and you can't apply friction to the surface to the surface then you can't cause it turn. So how do you make it spin? That's your real question, right? Think of the problem before you came across that article. Even if the surface is a smooth surface you'd be unable to spin it because if the radius is zero there's nothing to grab onto to get it going.

The problem that you're really having is that you're trying to solve a quantum mechanics problem using classical notions. According to the concepts of quantum mechanics it can't be thought of in that way. I'm so sorry my friend.
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