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Old Dec 26th 2015, 08:34 AM   #11
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With apologies but errors are present

Afraid that I have disagree with you on several points.

For a stsrt the M-M experiment, brilliant though it undoubtedly was, did NOT prove anything - it was a complete disaster. The completely bonkers conclusion arose from the limited learning of 1850.

You simply CANNOT talk about e-m radiations and Doppler effects in the same sentence.

Doppler is about the way movement of EITHER Source or Observer affects the mannner in which presssure fronts are either laid down in a Medium or interpreted by an Observer. The transmission properties of the Medium remain unchanged.

Are you aware that, in fact, there are two different Doppler effects depending on whether it is the Source or the Observer which is in motion w.r.t. the medium. It is my experience that that particular phenomenon is not generally realised nor welcomed. The auditory effect is the same in both instances and, yes, so-called Doppler Radar works but not because of a Doppler effect!

Ken Green
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Old Dec 27th 2015, 02:46 AM   #12
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Hi Ken, thanks once again. So far, i havent seen much on how we disagree with each other. I think we just seem not to realize that we are saying almost the same thing.

I know that light wave is an e-m radiations and I think it also obeys the Dopplers Effect and that is why, if a body can travel fast up to the speed of light, you will observe rings of light around the body. i cant say if such effect has been recorded yet since Einstein forbids the travelling of any object at the speed of light but i am sure that if any object can attain the speed of light, which i am very sure it can when provided with enough energy, rings of light waves would just form around the object. So yes, in this instance, you can talk about e-m radiations and Doppler effects.

yes i do realize that the Doppler effect could come from either the movement of the observer or the movement of the source of the wave. I also know that what you refer to as "pressure fronts are either laid down in a Medium or interpreted by an Observer" is also same as what is being referred to as "Change in the wavelength of the emitted waves". But whichever way this movement happens, it simply results to one thing, and that is "Change in the physical nature of the waves". and this is what we refer to as Doppler's effect.

In the effect i described in my article, I am simply saying that the mere act of creating a change in the pressure fronts/ wavelength of the waves through motion, results to "change in the relative measurements of observers of different frames".. in a more simple term, when you create a change in the wavelength of a wave as a result of motion, this change created comes back to also create a change in the measurements of observers of different frames. and that is what i represented mathematically via this equation { ƛ - ʎ /C = T - t = d/C }.

Regarding the M-M experiment, some writers claim is one of the greatest experiment ever, others claim it is not an accurate experiment but whichever it is, that is fine by me. And my deduction from my equation will still remain the same, " All matters travel at same speed irrespective of perspective of the observer."

Thank you and i appreciate your time and efforts to comment on my article.
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Old Dec 27th 2015, 05:15 AM   #13
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Absolutely NOT correct

No. I am very sorry indeed but we do NOT [" ... realize that we are saying almost the same thing ... ]

There is no way in which you can state that e-m radiations exhibit a Doppler effect. I assume of course that you are not resurrecting the Aether as a medium??

Ken Green
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Old Dec 27th 2015, 07:23 AM   #14
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Hi Ken, The Doppler effect for electromagnetic waves such as light results in either redshift or blueshift. It has been used to measure the speed at which stars and galaxies are approaching or receding from us; that is, their radial velocities. Part of the red shifts observed by astronomers come from the Doppler effect.

Blue light has shorter wavelength (higher frequency) than red, so all features in the optical spectra of objects moving away from us are shifted towards the red end (a red shift). Objects moving towards us (much rarer in astronomy) have spectra that are blue shifted. In some but by no means all cases, the simple Doppler effect explains the shift for the E-M waves like light. right??
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Old Dec 27th 2015, 11:29 AM   #15
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Hi Ken, thanks but i really want to understand you but not without your assistance. for instance, on the basis that light does not travel through any medium, does that mean that a source of light that travels at speed of light wont have a ring of light around it??

Also, do you mean that the Redshift and Blue shift is not correctly explained? i will be glad to hear your explanation on that. thanks
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Old Dec 27th 2015, 01:55 PM   #16
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Time passes ?

Hallo again,

The M-M experiment was conducted circa 1850 at a time when the world of science still beieved in the existence of Aether - it was their only explanation for the ability of Light to cross nothng (i.e. Space). Much water has flowed under the bridge since then but it easier to cling to the old than it is to start afresh. There is no basis whatever today for accepting the Doppler effect as an explanation of the red shift.

Back in the days of BW television, when the medium was used for good purpose, Science programmes were often presented by a German proffessor with an accent that possibly could have been cut with a laser.

He was the first to introduce me to Einstein's work. He showed that Einstein had produced an expression for the force of Gravity that had two distinct items:
Then first was unmistakably the force of mutual attraction so famliar to us.
The second part, when broken down, represented a force of mutual repulsion but it melted away with separation with an inverse linear Law.

Now, apply these two simultaneously and you find that there is a boundary where the two forces balance - i.e the sum of the force(s) of gravity amount to Zero.

You do not need a degree to realise that, beyond that boundary the force of repulsion is King and it was from this that Einstein first predicted that the Universe must be expanding.

BUT the science world has chosen to igore the fact that Einstein's prediction applies ONLY beyond that Boundary ?

Needless to say there was much acrimony hurled across the floors of academia.

Sosmebody, I know not who, sugested that if Einstein was correct then they could check it by looking for a red shift. Indeed they found it and joyfully wrote a bit of history.

Since then the Aether has fallen by the wayside but nobody has thought to put the books straight and to break the link with the alleged Doppler and red-shift.

Matters were not helped by the American claim that Hubble first noticed the red-shift and then discovered the Doppler-induced expansion of the Universe.

Now to change feet - have you studied the theory of control - the theory of servo systems? The basis of this philosophy is that it is necessary to have two opposing forces one of which acts to get things done and the second to control the enthusiasm of the first
PLUS
a referee system to apply checks and balances.

Without such an automatic regulator the Universe could not exist except as a manifestation of Hell.
Ken
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Old Dec 28th 2015, 08:05 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by kengreen
For a stsrt the M-M experiment, brilliant though it undoubtedly was, did NOT prove anything - it was a complete disaster.
The MMX experiment set out to detect the existence of the aether by measuring the speed of light. If the aether existed then the speed of light would vary on the relative velocity of it relative to the aether. The null results was consistent with the non-existence of the aether.

As far as proving anything goes - You have that wrong. Science, physics in particular, is not about proving anything right or wrong. To assume otherwise is not to understand science. For more on this see the video below with Alan Guth talking about this:
http://www.newenglandphysics.org/com...s/DSC_0002.MOV

Originally Posted by kengreen
You simply CANNOT talk about e-m radiations and Doppler effects in the same sentence.
Of course you can. Why do you believe otherwise?

Originally Posted by kengreen
Are you aware that, in fact, there are two different Doppler effects depending on whether it is the Source or the Observer which is in motion w.r.t. the medium.
If you're talking about the MMX experiment then there is no medium since light needs no medium to travel in.
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Old Dec 28th 2015, 10:05 AM   #18
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A different Planet ?

I am sorry but i disagree on every point thar you present.

The M-M exxpt. did NOT set out to test the presence of Aether. Tjhe object was to measure the speed at which the Earth was moving through Space - i.e. through the Aether which, in 1850, was an accepted proposition ? The result failed to be consistent with any acceptyed proposition - the expt. was a complete disaster.

Science is about making sense of the Universe in which we spend our miserable lives. It involves observation, data collection, seeking patterns in thaat data. From those patterns (where found) we put forward hypothesese for discussion and development on the premis that two heads are better than one.

If you truly believe that e-m radiations can get into bed with Doppler effects then you do not understand tjhe nature of Sound! Doppler produced his idea (so 'tis said) to explain the plaintive song of a steam locomotive as it first approached an Observer and then abruply retreated.

How on Earth (or elsewhere) can a moving object vary the pattern laid down in a propagation Medium when such a medium there is not?

Finally NO! I was NOT talking aabout the M-M experiment but about a mathematical analysis which ought to please the hearts of the maany adherents and worshippers of heiroglyphics. If I can dig out the summary I will attach it to this - or, as needs be ,re-post.

Ken
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Old Dec 28th 2015, 11:01 AM   #19
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Doppler

Sorry,
The best I can mnage.
Ken
Attached Thumbnails
Light Waves And Time-doppler-summary-2-001.jpg  

Last edited by kengreen; Dec 28th 2015 at 11:50 AM. Reason: Wrong copy
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